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on this episode of skeptico

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a show about finding truth in science

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there actually were a lot of accounts

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overtly saying this particular person

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died went to the other world and came

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back and that's how we know what the

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afterlife was like i found you know

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40 50 60 of them from different parts of

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the world

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so that's not in dispute

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the idea that

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for all these thousands of years in

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pretty much every cultural region of the

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planet people have just been making

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things up and let's instead

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look at the world through our own sort

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of mechanistic

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materialistic scientific viewpoint

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and say that no it's all culture and

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it's all in the brain

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to me that's a pretty limited way of

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looking at the world and that to me

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seems completely illogical and

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unreasonable and it's faith rather than

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science it's people sticking to their

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predetermined philosophical paradigms

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rather than looking at the actual

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evidence and extrapolating from it

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and a show about spotting scientists who

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are full of baloney

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you don't have any answer in the bible

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what to do when humans are no longer

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useful to the economy you need

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completely new ideologies completely new

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religions

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and they are likely to emerge from

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silicon valley

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everything that the old religions

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promised

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happiness and justice and even eternal

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life

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but here on earth with the help of

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technology and not after death with the

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help of some supernatural being

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what are humans for

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as far as we know for nothing i mean

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there is

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drama some great cosmic plan

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that we have a role to play in it

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this has been the story of

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all religions and ideologies and so

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forth but as a scientist the best i can

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say this is not true

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first clip you heard was from today's

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guest dr gregory shushand who seemed to

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be a little bit embarrassed when i said

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he's doing some of the most important

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work in science period full stop

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so in this introduction i had to pair

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his quote with one from

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a science darling right now dr yuval

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harari who is name dropped by barack

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obama and bill gates and zuckerberg and

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has sold 30 million books and is on 60

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minutes and is all over the place and of

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course is one of the key members in the

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world economic forum great reset that's

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just the way it is but as that quote

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reveals he's really not too well

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informed on science is he at least on

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the science we've explored here on

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skeptica he's certainly not up to date

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on why we're not biological robots in a

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meaningless universe

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but we shall leave all that behind and

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turn our attention towards some great

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work done by a terrific scientist and

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researcher here's my chat with dr

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gregory shushan

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex karis

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and today we welcome dr gregory shushan

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back to skeptico he's here to talk about

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his terrific new book the next world

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extraordinary experiences of the

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afterlife now in case you don't remember

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no other way to put it he's the world's

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leading scholar leading authority on

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ndes across culture and across time

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across history that's his specialty

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and

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break down why that's so important so

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in my estimation i think a lot of people

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would have to agree with this

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the near-death experience and the

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science associated with it

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is just about

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the most direct

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challenge slash contradiction to the

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dominant scientific paradigm in our

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culture which is materialism

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and nothing confronts that as directly

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as near-death experience does

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and that's not hype that's just the way

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that it is i mean if consciousness is

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shown to be real and extend beyond

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bodily death then it's

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kind of a whole new ballgame for science

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so here's dr gregory shoshan he comes

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along and he says gee guys

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i see that you have a lot of these

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near-death experience reports but you

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still seem to be having a hard time

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figuring out if this phenomenon is real

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tell you what

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i'm a distinguished scholar oxford

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college of london post doctorate

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fellowships all that good stuff

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and i know how to do this because i'm

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going to use the tried and true method

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of examining whether or not this

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phenomenon

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shows up across culture and across time

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and if it does then that be it go a long

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way towards kind of establishing the

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reality of this near-death experience

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and if it doesn't then would suggest

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that maybe it's not what we think it is

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so that's what he's done

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he's done it better than anyone else

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he's published a number of books we'll

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pull up his website in a minute many

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articles many scholarly articles

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and

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for anyone who's really paying attention

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to his work

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he's kind of changed the world

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this is phenomenally important research

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i couldn't be more serious about it

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this is the cutting edge really

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of

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scientific thought which is

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what does it mean

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to have a near-death experience what

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does that tell us about who we are about

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as human beings so

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i'm i'm not hyping that one bit i am

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super excited to have this guy on you

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know i reference him all the time my

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references work i think it's super

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important and gregory i'm just delighted

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to have you here thanks so much

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thank you alex that's that's quite a

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build up and i hope i can live up to it

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you know

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you don't even have to live up to it

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your book lives up to it and uh that's

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where i think we should start so this

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new book is

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the next world extraordinary experiences

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of the afterlife

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it's

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a very

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accessible way it's not gonna like

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overwhelm people you can get it

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but it's really important so there's a

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lot of topics to talk about

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tell us

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what you think the book is most

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important kind of takeaways might be for

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people who are picking it up i think for

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one thing is

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just the

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i guess

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negotiating the similarities and the

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differences in near-death experiences

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around the world that i guess the

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takeaway really is that

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whatever you think it's not that simple

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basically so so whether you're

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completely convinced that you know

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near-death experiences are just all in

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the brain and it's a dying brain and

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there's no such thing as this kind of

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phenomenon it's hallucination or if you

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think that near-death experiences are

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you know absolutely evidence for an

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afterlife i mean that it's the same

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around the world and all humans have the

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same experience and we all go to the

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same afterlife then

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either of those positions the book is

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probably going to make you think again

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because

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all of the other books about near-death

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experiences very few of them really have

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taken into account the cross-cultural

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and historical stuff

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in formulating their theories about you

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know what a near-death experience is and

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what the phenomena means

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for the debate about whether there's an

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afterlife or not

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right i would it does all of that um and

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then this is kind of an extension this

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book comes out of this ongoing research

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that you're doing you know so tell

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people about when that research started

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how you've gone about it we talked a

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little bit about this last time but i

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think it's important for people to know

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how your process

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sure

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um yeah i started off doing egyptian

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archaeology and that was at university

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college london

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and i um you know you read things like

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the books books of the dead and pyramid

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texts and coffin texts and

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i just started noticing

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um that in a in a very general way the

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descriptions of the afterlife in these

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these ancient texts

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echoed near-death experiences so for

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example

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the soul leaves the body

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travels through darkness comes out into

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another realm meets a being of light in

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the form of the sun god has this

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evaluation of their earthly life

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there's a sort of symbolic way of

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encountering

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the person's own corpse so which echoes

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the out-of-body experience

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and that's why i say symbolic it means

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they

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encounter the

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god of the underworld osiris in in the

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form of a corpse and the text state that

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that actually is the corpse of the

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person so the person's being identified

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with all these

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deities and afterlife beings

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and

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the idea behind it is that the

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realization that you're dead

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but still conscious and still alive um

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enables you to proceed spiritually

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through through the um through the next

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world so

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that was interesting to me and i i

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remembered a book by carol zaleski um

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other world journeys where she um

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compared near-death experiences with

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medieval

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um

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afterlife other world journey texts from

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from medieval europe

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um she concluded that um you know it was

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all just kind of a product of the

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imagination which which to me was um

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you know she it kind of fell flat

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because she went through all this effort

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to show look how similar they are and

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then she said but they're imaginary so

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to me that was not satisfying and i

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thought

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um

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uh descriptions of the afterlife are

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similar to

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uh these visions of the afterlife then

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you know what what came first basically

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so if they're happening in ancient egypt

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as well that kind of starts

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you thinking that it wasn't just a

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cultural creation

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so to test that um i i compared um the

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egyptian afterlife texts with ancient

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india

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ancient china

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aztec and maya and ancient sumer

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and that was my first book

285
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:42,480
conceptions of the afterlife in early

286
00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:44,880
civilizations

287
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:46,480
that book's gonna be revised and

288
00:10:50,550 --> 00:10:48,880
reprinted by the way next year um under

289
00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:50,560
the title near death experience in

290
00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:53,600
ancient civilizations so that will be

291
00:10:57,590 --> 00:10:55,600
accessible to people the first edition

292
00:10:59,990 --> 00:10:57,600
of that book was like as you know 150

293
00:11:01,990 --> 00:11:00,000
bucks or something so nobody outside of

294
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:02,000
academia was able to read it

295
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:04,800
15 or 20 people within academia read it

296
00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:07,200
yeah the dissemination i'm sure

297
00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:08,320
might have been

298
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:09,839
disappointing but i don't think the

299
00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:12,240
impact was disappointing i mean i'm

300
00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:14,640
pretty tuned to this community near

301
00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:16,240
death experience science community and

302
00:11:19,190 --> 00:11:17,519
they all

303
00:11:21,269 --> 00:11:19,200
have the highest regard for your work

304
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:21,279
and they all immediately understand the

305
00:11:24,949 --> 00:11:23,200
importance of it because the approach

306
00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:24,959
you've taken the the other thing i want

307
00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:26,320
to kind of add or have you talk more

308
00:11:30,710 --> 00:11:27,760
about it seems like every time i talk to

309
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:30,720
you you're like buried in this process

310
00:11:35,269 --> 00:11:33,360
of digging up these accounts and i go oh

311
00:11:37,190 --> 00:11:35,279
yeah you know i found this other account

312
00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:37,200
and oh i just you know ran across this

313
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:39,920
which i just imagined you you're doing

314
00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:42,640
that so tell people

315
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:45,200
where you get these accounts and what

316
00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:47,360
that process is like and

317
00:11:52,069 --> 00:11:50,160
is it as exciting as it sounds

318
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,079
like you're having so much fun finding

319
00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:54,160
these or what is it like

320
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:56,320
yeah i mean it it is for me i don't know

321
00:12:00,949 --> 00:11:58,240
if it would be for most people it's if

322
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:00,959
if you enjoy you know long long long

323
00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:03,440
hours in libraries and on the internet

324
00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:04,240
and

325
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,480
on you know websites like uh internet

326
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:08,880
archive where they have tons and tons of

327
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:11,680
you know public domain anthropology and

328
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:13,600
religious studies and you know the stuff

329
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:14,880
is out there

330
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:17,440
it's just a matter of finding it so for

331
00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:18,480
example

332
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:20,639
uh for the native american stuff which i

333
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:22,800
did in my second book it's i saw some

334
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:24,560
scholar refer to it as leap frogging so

335
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:26,399
you so you look in you know one of my

336
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:28,480
main sources with it was this book uh

337
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,160
the north american indian orpheus

338
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:33,360
tradition by his swedish scholar akiholt

339
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:34,480
krantz

340
00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:37,600
and he was that book is about uh

341
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:40,320
journeys to the afterlife uh in order to

342
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:42,079
rescue the soul of somebody who's in

343
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:43,519
danger of dying

344
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:45,200
and then uh

345
00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:47,279
a shamanic sort of thing and then how

346
00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:49,120
that was mythologized you know this

347
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:52,160
process of shamanic experiences and ndes

348
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:54,240
turning into into myths

349
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:55,920
which of course of course is is a sort

350
00:13:01,990 --> 00:12:58,560
of central theme of my own work so in

351
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:02,000
that book you know he's 1957 and he's

352
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:04,079
writing about near-death experiences you

353
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:04,880
know

354
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:06,800
a couple of decades before any that word

355
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:09,279
was even that phrase was even invented

356
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,040
so you know i went through that book

357
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:13,279
which is a fairly substantial book with

358
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:16,079
a fine tooth comb and going back to the

359
00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:19,279
original reference from you know 1859 or

360
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:21,519
1689 or whatever it was

361
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:23,120
for each of these accounts and

362
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:24,720
determining you know

363
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:26,720
are they really an nde did they happen

364
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:27,519
to

365
00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:31,600
individual

366
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:33,440
or is it a myth or is it a shamanic

367
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:34,800
account or what

368
00:13:38,310 --> 00:13:36,560
and then kind of you know

369
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,320
categorizing them and analyzing them

370
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:40,480
according to which of those categories

371
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:42,000
they fall into

372
00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:43,680
and then oftentimes

373
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:45,839
you know i would follow

374
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:48,000
to get back to the original source and

375
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:49,760
then there'd be one or two other ndes in

376
00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:50,560
there

377
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:55,120
you know see this other nd that happened

378
00:13:58,949 --> 00:13:57,040
in 1767

379
00:14:01,509 --> 00:13:58,959
for this particular so this is it's

380
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:01,519
really an endless kind of process

381
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:03,519
and it's just a lot of a lot of lego

382
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:05,600
work if you can use that term

383
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:08,320
so i can only imagine and then for the

384
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,000
end result is for people who pick up

385
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:12,480
this book you have a good sense of this

386
00:14:16,949 --> 00:14:15,360
as a writer i have to say because you

387
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:16,959
open up this book

388
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:19,360
and you boom you hit us with story after

389
00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:22,000
story after story accounts if you will

390
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:24,560
and the book opens up in the mid third

391
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:26,720
century bc

392
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:30,000
in china a man after several days of

393
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:30,959
dying

394
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:32,720
is revived and said he had witnessed all

395
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:35,279
sorts of things related to demons and

396
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:37,040
deities and heaven and earth and the

397
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:39,600
sensation of being in a dreaming state

398
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:42,399
and by no means dead and then on each

399
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:43,760
one of these paragraphs i won't go

400
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:45,040
through them all but i maybe might

401
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:46,480
highlight them

402
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,040
the last sentence is the real kicker to

403
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,600
your point this is just one of over a

404
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:53,920
hundred similar narratives from ancient

405
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:56,959
and medieval china so then you go to the

406
00:15:03,430 --> 00:14:59,600
next your next paragraph is 700 years

407
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:03,440
later 5 000 miles away in greece and

408
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:05,600
then you tell this story from greece and

409
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,880
then you say

410
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:08,959
again you know dozens and dozens of

411
00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:10,800
other stories then you go to

412
00:15:15,829 --> 00:15:13,120
all these different cultures and it's

413
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,839
super impressive as a reader you're like

414
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:17,760
whoa there is

415
00:15:20,629 --> 00:15:19,040
something

416
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:20,639
to this that is

417
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:23,040
undeniable in a way

418
00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:24,959
yeah yeah i wanted to open it like that

419
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,720
deliberately because

420
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:28,880
um you know i still

421
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:30,800
keep reading things in the

422
00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:33,759
popular media or skeptical critics

423
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:35,839
saying things like

424
00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:38,160
if near-death experiences were real

425
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:39,600
they'd be happening all over the world

426
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:41,199
and they don't we don't see any evidence

427
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:43,759
of that so i wanted to put paid to that

428
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,839
because it's ridiculous that people keep

429
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:47,199
saying the only reason they're saying

430
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,399
that is because they haven't done the

431
00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:50,240
research because you know there are

432
00:15:53,269 --> 00:15:52,240
books out there not just my my three

433
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:53,279
books but

434
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:55,680
you know jim mclennan and alan kelly

435
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:57,440
here and people like this jenny wade did

436
00:16:01,829 --> 00:15:59,199
a native american one

437
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:01,839
so i wanted to highlight that you know

438
00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:04,480
the occurrence of these experiences and

439
00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:07,120
the existence of these accounts is just

440
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:09,040
fact you know that it's not in it's not

441
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:11,279
a matter for debate at all and and i

442
00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:12,959
want and in doing opening the book that

443
00:16:17,030 --> 00:16:15,279
way i wanted to show you just the really

444
00:16:18,550 --> 00:16:17,040
wide diversity of

445
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:18,560
where they happen all around the world

446
00:16:21,910 --> 00:16:20,560
and throughout history

447
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:21,920
the other thing that's really impressive

448
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:24,639
to me is you marry that with

449
00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:27,440
a deep knowledge of near-death

450
00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:29,440
experience science and you directly

451
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:31,680
address that in the book in a way that i

452
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:33,519
don't think some of your colleagues are

453
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:36,560
really capable of handling so i mean

454
00:16:42,310 --> 00:16:39,360
you talk sam parnia you talk

455
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:42,320
you know dr penny sartori you know

456
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:45,040
von lamo all those people and you are

457
00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:46,880
able to kind of handle the evidence of

458
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:47,920
that so

459
00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:50,240
there's kind of this other moving part

460
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:52,959
to your research which is near-death

461
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:55,440
experience science which has

462
00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:57,199
kind of come out of nowhere in the last

463
00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:59,360
20 years but has now advanced to the

464
00:17:02,870 --> 00:17:00,720
point that

465
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:02,880
really no one directly

466
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:04,959
challenges

467
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,360
the reality of the phenomenon they want

468
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:09,679
to nibble around at the edges and stuff

469
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:12,880
like that but that's a sea change that

470
00:17:18,069 --> 00:17:15,520
plays right into what you're doing but

471
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:18,079
you fully embrace it so what has been

472
00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:21,839
that process for you in terms of uh

473
00:17:24,949 --> 00:17:23,520
understanding near-death experience

474
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:24,959
science and what have been some of the

475
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:28,160
highs and lows of that for you

476
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:30,559
uh yeah i mean the it's difficult

477
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:32,640
because i'm not trained as a scientist i

478
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,720
mean other than you know

479
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:36,480
archaeology anthropology kind of social

480
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:38,320
sciences a little bit of you know

481
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:40,080
empirical stuff in archaeology but

482
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:42,480
certainly not anything like you know

483
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:45,360
cardiology or what these actual nde

484
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,799
scientists are

485
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:48,240
so it's big yeah it's definitely a

486
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:50,320
learning curve trying to

487
00:17:54,470 --> 00:17:51,760
figure out what

488
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:54,480
evidence actually is compelling what is

489
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:56,480
you know just anecdotal but nevertheless

490
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:59,520
compelling and and you know

491
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:01,280
trying to just negotiate and get my head

492
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:04,240
around it but then really the purpose of

493
00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:06,160
that is to

494
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:07,520
look at that work in light of my own

495
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:09,600
work in other words so the kind of

496
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:11,679
central question is really

497
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:13,679
you know given all the cross-cultural

498
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:15,280
similarities and cross-cultural

499
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:17,280
existence of ndes

500
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:19,600
what kind of afterlife

501
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:22,320
could be possible if we accept all the

502
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:24,720
evidence of ndes from these you know

503
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:26,720
mainstream scientists

504
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:28,880
and the other question being

505
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:31,760
uh how does the diversity and

506
00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:34,240
inconsistencies between nba accounts

507
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:36,400
correspond with you know the the

508
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:39,440
survival hypothesis for ndes

509
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:41,440
absolutely and that

510
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:44,160
that's what really is going to propel

511
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:47,760
all of us forward because you've now

512
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:50,080
raised the bar in terms of the level

513
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:51,840
three kind of questions that we all have

514
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:53,039
to ask

515
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:55,360
but i i would return to you know

516
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:56,720
like

517
00:19:00,310 --> 00:18:58,320
your work

518
00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:00,320
looks one way

519
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:02,160
if there's no there there

520
00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:05,679
if you are constantly having to prove no

521
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:08,080
really this is real there really is this

522
00:19:14,549 --> 00:19:11,039
phenomenon and look you know then

523
00:19:16,630 --> 00:19:14,559
you're one way or if you just are able

524
00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:16,640
to lean on that which you can and should

525
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:18,320
it's appropriate and say well these

526
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:20,080
people have kind of established

527
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:23,200
this to this point now it

528
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,000
exactly what you said it jumps us to the

529
00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:28,480
next level question which is

530
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:30,400
how is this different than the shamanic

531
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:33,039
experience what about these

532
00:19:37,029 --> 00:19:36,000
angels and demons in purgatory in hell

533
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:37,039
what about

534
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:40,240
precognitive experiences or advanced

535
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:41,360
information that you couldn't have

536
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,679
gained otherwise in these realms

537
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:45,919
all that stuff now comes on the table

538
00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:47,840
and now we're again turning to you and

539
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,480
going oh i wonder how does that look

540
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:52,799
through this worldwide cultural filter

541
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:55,200
rather than our narrow cultural filter

542
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:57,440
and how does it sync with ours and

543
00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:00,240
doesn't sync with ours so there's just a

544
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:02,400
number of jumping off points they're

545
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:04,480
kind of laid out in the chapters of your

546
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:05,600
book

547
00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:08,799
what interests you as one to

548
00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:12,000
jump into yeah the the non-scientific

549
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:13,919
yet nevertheless evidential stuff i

550
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:15,679
think is really interesting so for

551
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:18,320
example the peak and darien experience

552
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:21,280
which is when a near-death experience or

553
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:23,360
goes to the other world and meets

554
00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:25,280
somebody that they don't know had

555
00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:26,960
actually died on earth they're unaware

556
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:28,799
of that person's death and then they

557
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:31,039
come back and they find out um that that

558
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:32,880
person had died after all so you know

559
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:34,480
they'll they'll meet

560
00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:36,240
you know their uncle joe or whatever and

561
00:20:38,789 --> 00:20:37,280
come back

562
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:38,799
and everyone's excited that they've come

563
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:40,400
back to life but you know by the way

564
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:42,159
uncle joe died while you were dead and

565
00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:44,240
so that you know is

566
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:46,000
basically confirmation

567
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:48,000
that the vision that they had in the

568
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:49,760
other world of uncle joe was was

569
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:51,120
vertical

570
00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:52,480
and then there are also other things

571
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:55,120
like there's a really interesting mormon

572
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:56,640
um example

573
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:57,919
which uh

574
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:00,240
seems to you know indicate some kind of

575
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:02,640
predestiny there was a guy named

576
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:04,400
mr monson i don't think they gave us his

577
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:06,880
first name from 1923

578
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:09,440
and he dies and has an nde

579
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:11,440
it's a very brief one and he's met by

580
00:21:15,669 --> 00:21:14,320
his daughter his daughter died 23 years

581
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:15,679
before he did

582
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:17,919
and she told him to go back to earth and

583
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:19,760
the reason he had to go back is because

584
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:22,640
his six-year-old son has to die first

585
00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:24,720
then his mother has to die

586
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,799
and then his wife has to die and then it

587
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:28,480
will be his turn

588
00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:30,640
so he returns to life and within a few

589
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,280
months his mother dies and his son dies

590
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:36,000
um and then his wife dies a few years

591
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:38,080
later in the exact order

592
00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:40,080
that he was told they would die so

593
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:41,840
you know that that brings up all kinds

594
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:43,919
of weird things for one thing it's you

595
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:45,600
know it seems to be an evidential

596
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:46,799
confirmation

597
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:48,880
of his visiting his his daughter who

598
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:51,280
died 23 years earlier

599
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:53,120
but for another thing it raises all

600
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:56,240
kinds of to me uncomfortable questions

601
00:22:01,029 --> 00:21:59,360
about predestiny and uh

602
00:22:02,950 --> 00:22:01,039
you know whether what happened if he

603
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:02,960
hadn't come back what if his body had

604
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:04,720
been totally mangled and was

605
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:06,080
uninhabitable

606
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:08,159
and and he interrupted that flow or what

607
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:09,039
if his

608
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:10,640
you know one of his people who were

609
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:12,000
supposed to die in this particular order

610
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:13,679
what if one of them died

611
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:15,919
in an accident out of order you know so

612
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:17,919
it's just it kind of reaches my my

613
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:20,159
boggle threshold at that point but i

614
00:22:23,590 --> 00:22:22,080
would also say that it's equally

615
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,600
interesting and and you know me i'm

616
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:25,200
always like straddling going back and

617
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:26,480
forth between these

618
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:28,480
these things uh equally interesting is

619
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:31,120
these cases from the late 80s

620
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,480
kenneth ring

621
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,960
in the us and margot gray in the uk

622
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,559
independently

623
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:38,640
started finding these cases of nd ears

624
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:40,799
coming back and saying you know we had

625
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:42,880
this apocalyptic vision the world is

626
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:44,720
going to end within a certain number of

627
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:47,440
years it's going to be you know

628
00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:49,760
a nuclear war environmental catastrophe

629
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:50,880
or whatever

630
00:22:55,029 --> 00:22:52,720
very very similar

631
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:55,039
in both the uk and u.s totally unrelated

632
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:57,679
studies un unknown to each other

633
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,039
and even mentioning the same years 1988

634
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:03,840
apparently came up the most often but

635
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:06,240
it was either late 80s early 90s

636
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:08,480
and of course none of this came to pass

637
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:10,240
we didn't um

638
00:23:15,669 --> 00:23:12,559
have a global catastrophe and we're

639
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,679
certainly not now in a golden age which

640
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:17,360
which is what they also predicted that

641
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:18,880
you know the catastrophe would be

642
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:21,039
followed by a golden age so how do we

643
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:23,600
understand the the false

644
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:26,159
um divine revelations that people get in

645
00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:27,280
ndes

646
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:30,400
uh apparently false whatever that means

647
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,320
and there's like a ton to pull apart

648
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:34,240
there and i'd even go back to the very

649
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,400
first part what you said is

650
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:38,799
what does it say about death

651
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:41,279
like even the part that's

652
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:42,480
kind of

653
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:44,720
you know the i see people that i didn't

654
00:23:48,149 --> 00:23:46,559
know are deceased

655
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:48,159
and now i find out that they are

656
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:50,880
deceased that is saying something that

657
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:53,279
we can't really pin down in terms of

658
00:23:59,830 --> 00:23:56,880
what death and life means right because

659
00:24:01,750 --> 00:23:59,840
which perspective are we on you know

660
00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:01,760
andy years always tell we're returning

661
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:04,320
home and this is really where we're from

662
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:05,760
and we have these soul groups and we

663
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:07,120
decided

664
00:24:10,149 --> 00:24:08,000
well

665
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:10,159
how does that how does death in life is

666
00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:12,080
that what it looks like and then as you

667
00:24:18,149 --> 00:24:15,360
mentioned the whole time thing is just

668
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:18,159
crazy and it gets into all sorts of

669
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,360
issues like parapsychology precognitive

670
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:23,760
pre-cognitive dreams andy paquette dr

671
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:25,520
andy paquette's been on this show has

672
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:26,559
recorded

673
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:28,960
thousands of pre-cognitive dreams and

674
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:31,200
has gone to great lengths to document

675
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:33,600
the accuracy of them highly accurate

676
00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:36,400
what does that mean about

677
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:39,679
this space-time continuum that we're in

678
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:41,440
and then we have plenty accounts where

679
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:42,400
it

680
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:43,520
i don't know

681
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:45,440
the trickster isn't we're they're

682
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:47,679
directly trying to mess with us right

683
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:49,520
they're directly trying to tell us stuff

684
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:51,120
that maybe isn't

685
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:53,039
true and we don't know why and why would

686
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:54,799
they screw with us and why would they do

687
00:24:57,909 --> 00:24:56,080
all this stuff

688
00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:57,919
yeah but but through all that and this

689
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:59,440
is what i want you to also kind of touch

690
00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:00,400
on

691
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:01,760
and this is the the strength of your

692
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:03,760
book is you're able to kind of get to

693
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:06,320
that next level and say this is really

694
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:09,200
messy and it gets really messy all over

695
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:10,880
the place whichever way you look

696
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:12,480
at the same time

697
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:15,440
there's these consistent themes there's

698
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:17,600
these consistent

699
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,320
truths that seem to be profound

700
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:22,559
in terms of the way that we've tried to

701
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:24,320
answer these questions up to now which

702
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:25,600
has been

703
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:27,360
as you point out in the book

704
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:30,320
just unbelievably absurdly

705
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:33,039
inadequate what do you think about the

706
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,840
patterns that do seem to emerge from

707
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:37,440
your work

708
00:25:41,909 --> 00:25:39,520
i i wanted to test that further beyond

709
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:41,919
ndes and so there's a chapter on

710
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:44,000
mediumship and

711
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:46,080
not just you know again i'm not looking

712
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:47,520
at the evidence for and against

713
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:49,440
mediumship but what i did is

714
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:51,200
i wanted to find you know the most

715
00:25:55,669 --> 00:25:53,039
highly rated mediums in the history of

716
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:55,679
psychical research and then see

717
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:57,760
what descriptions of the afterlife were

718
00:26:02,549 --> 00:25:59,279
transmitted through those mediums

719
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:02,559
allegedly by souls in the afterlife

720
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:04,080
and

721
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:05,679
you know compare that with nds because

722
00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:07,200
like you said at the beginning i sort of

723
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:09,120
see nds as the baseline

724
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:11,120
for evidence for an afterlife it's the

725
00:26:14,149 --> 00:26:12,480
most compelling

726
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,159
of of any of the different kinds of

727
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:16,480
psychical research phenomena from from

728
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:18,080
my perspective

729
00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:19,120
um

730
00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:20,880
so i wanted to see to what degree the

731
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:22,960
mediumship mediumistic descriptions of

732
00:26:27,510 --> 00:26:25,039
the afterlife correspond with what

733
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:27,520
people who have had ndes tell us about

734
00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:29,360
what the afterlife is like

735
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:31,279
and and that's a really interesting and

736
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:33,039
in a way it um reflects the

737
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:35,360
cross-cultural and historical

738
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:38,000
differences and similarities of ndes

739
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:40,799
because what i found was that there are

740
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:41,760
all these

741
00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:44,080
typical elements of ndes you know

742
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:45,600
leaving the body and going to another

743
00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:47,120
realm and

744
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:47,919
meeting

745
00:26:51,909 --> 00:26:50,240
deceased relatives and spiritual beings

746
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:51,919
and evaluation of your life and all this

747
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,960
kind of stuff

748
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:54,960
but then there are very highly

749
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:56,799
culturally specific

750
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:58,480
uh descriptions of what that other world

751
00:27:01,909 --> 00:27:00,480
is like and keeping in mind that most of

752
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:01,919
the stuff comes from victorian and

753
00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:04,320
edwardian england it's no surprise that

754
00:27:09,190 --> 00:27:06,880
the afterlife is is basically uh an

755
00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:09,200
idealized version of victorian integrity

756
00:27:13,269 --> 00:27:11,360
in england and and certainly not

757
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:13,279
enlightened in the sense that that

758
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:15,520
people who have had ndes come back and

759
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:17,600
tell us you know i i experienced one

760
00:27:22,149 --> 00:27:19,840
with oneness with the universe um

761
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:22,159
there's no difference between me and any

762
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:24,640
of my fellow human beings or all of this

763
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:26,720
collective consciousness am i of

764
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:29,360
universal understanding in the

765
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:32,000
you know summerland uh which is what

766
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:33,760
they called it in the victorian

767
00:27:38,950 --> 00:27:36,240
edwardian mediumship it's you know

768
00:27:42,149 --> 00:27:38,960
hierarchies are maintained um between

769
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:42,159
classes between religions between races

770
00:27:46,389 --> 00:27:44,399
and it's very much just a duplicate

771
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,399
where nothing's bad it's basically

772
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:48,559
england where everything was perfect so

773
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:50,480
so to me that's not very convincing then

774
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:52,799
there's also really wacky stuff like you

775
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:54,640
know sir walter scott says that there's

776
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:56,640
salamander flame beings living in the

777
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:57,600
sun

778
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:00,320
and you know there's mermaids and giants

779
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:03,360
and all this kind of obviously

780
00:28:08,310 --> 00:28:06,799
dreamlike or hallucinatory descriptions

781
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:08,320
so again how do you square that with the

782
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:11,039
similarities with with ndes

783
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:12,799
well it it's hard because every

784
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:14,960
everywhere we turn we're

785
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:16,880
kind of shackled with this language you

786
00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:18,240
know when we say it's obviously

787
00:28:23,430 --> 00:28:20,000
hallucinatory

788
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,440
we don't know right yeah

789
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:25,200
right because what some people

790
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:28,399
conclude is that you are being presented

791
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,440
with what you need at that time so what

792
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:33,440
it right you know and that

793
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:35,679
we can't say that that's that's just a

794
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:39,440
theory but it could fit in this too

795
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:41,360
to some of your other points i think are

796
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:44,399
super interesting to me is this question

797
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:45,440
of

798
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:46,960
their being a moral imperative they're

799
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:48,480
being good or bad they're being

800
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:51,360
individual souls versus collective souls

801
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:54,480
and you kind of have to hash that out

802
00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:56,480
especially in light of what some of your

803
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:58,159
colleagues have said because we do have

804
00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:59,679
this kind of

805
00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:01,520
academia

806
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:04,399
wokeness overlay on it that says that

807
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:07,039
and and you just directly confront this

808
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:08,799
but

809
00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:11,200
you know there is no experience

810
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:13,760
other than that that can be separated

811
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:15,840
from the culture there's nothing you

812
00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:18,240
know and as you point out that

813
00:29:24,830 --> 00:29:20,559
that can have a very racist

814
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:24,840
unknowingly it can have a very racist or

815
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:27,840
certainly uh cultural superiority kind

816
00:29:32,789 --> 00:29:30,399
of vibe to it and

817
00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:32,799
so we that's a that's an equally a

818
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:35,120
problem of of this whole thing right so

819
00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:37,679
on one hand yeah these people do seem to

820
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:38,559
be

821
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:41,360
layering on their cultural thing and

822
00:29:44,549 --> 00:29:43,200
then when we say oh yeah it's all

823
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:44,559
culture well that doesn't really make

824
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:48,159
any sense either any thoughts on that

825
00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:49,600
that's a really good point because a lot

826
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:51,039
of

827
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:52,960
you know especially in religious studies

828
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,720
they see mysticism

829
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:56,399
and you know any kind of religious

830
00:30:02,389 --> 00:29:59,919
experience including ndes as totally

831
00:30:04,549 --> 00:30:02,399
generated by the cultural tradition that

832
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:04,559
they're a part of but they neglect the

833
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:06,559
the fact that these experiences are

834
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:09,360
spontaneous that there's no tradition

835
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:12,159
associated with you know having an nde

836
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:13,200
being

837
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:14,799
hit by a bus or having a heart attack

838
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:16,240
and leaving your body and coming back

839
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:17,760
you know that's not a tradition it's not

840
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:20,320
a practice that people you know engage

841
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:22,399
in it's not like here's how to have well

842
00:30:26,230 --> 00:30:24,000
there is you know in shamanism there's

843
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:26,240
sort of like how to have an nde but for

844
00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:28,320
the most part hold on so

845
00:30:31,909 --> 00:30:30,159
let's talk about that because that's

846
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:31,919
next but every every one of these has a

847
00:30:36,789 --> 00:30:34,080
contradiction to it that's kind of

848
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:36,799
interesting but back to what you're

849
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:39,440
saying of that they they're they're not

850
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:42,480
uh spontaneous well the other thing i

851
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:44,399
remember from your previous book that i

852
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:46,320
think is just really really

853
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:48,640
uh amazing and i always kind of hold up

854
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:51,679
to people is you found

855
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:52,720
that

856
00:31:06,149 --> 00:30:53,760
the

857
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:06,159
and that is extremely powerful and you

858
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:08,640
also offer kind of the supporting

859
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:10,559
evidence of that of like

860
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:12,799
when you know they say oh yeah we used

861
00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:14,320
to believe this

862
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:17,200
and then joe had his nde and we started

863
00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:18,640
believing this

864
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:21,600
and then it was confirmed by this so i i

865
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:23,120
think that's really powerful do you want

866
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:24,799
to kind of recap

867
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:26,880
that and then and then because i think

868
00:31:32,230 --> 00:31:29,600
that also then ties into the or could be

869
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:32,240
an explanation for some of the shamanic

870
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:34,320
things oh you gotta drink this poison

871
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:36,159
i'll get you at the club so you don't

872
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:38,320
you know because it it fits in with what

873
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:39,760
you're saying it's like this is a

874
00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:42,720
tremendous gift to have this knowledge

875
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:44,559
let's get more of it no matter even if i

876
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:47,600
have to kill you to do it yeah yeah

877
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:49,440
yeah that was my second book which is um

878
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:51,039
near-death experience and indigenous

879
00:31:55,509 --> 00:31:53,360
religions that's i think the one you're

880
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:55,519
referring to that yeah it kind of delves

881
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:57,120
deeply into

882
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:58,559
it's very different from the first book

883
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:00,559
because the first book was looking at

884
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:03,360
you know afterlife beliefs and trying to

885
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:04,799
match them up with new death experience

886
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:06,320
to see if you know were these beliefs

887
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:08,880
influenced by ndes but there wasn't a

888
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:10,080
lot of

889
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:12,720
evidence or actual accounts for ndes in

890
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,399
those ancient civilizations with the

891
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:16,159
exception of china as you mentioned and

892
00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:17,360
one or two in

893
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:19,039
mesoamerica and india

894
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:21,360
but um looking at the you know small

895
00:32:25,669 --> 00:32:23,360
scale indigenous societies which used to

896
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:25,679
be called tribal in you know the native

897
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:26,960
americans

898
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:29,919
pacific areas and and africa

899
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:32,320
there actually were a lot of accounts

900
00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:34,559
overtly saying you know this particular

901
00:32:38,549 --> 00:32:37,440
person historical person my grandfather

902
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:38,559
whoever

903
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:40,799
died went to the other world and came

904
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:42,960
back and that's how we know what the

905
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:44,880
afterlife was like so just

906
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:46,960
overtly totally stating

907
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:49,519
you know we our afterlife knowledge

908
00:32:53,190 --> 00:32:51,440
comes from their death experiences if

909
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:53,200
they had the term nde that's what they

910
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:54,720
would have been saying and i found you

911
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:55,440
know

912
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:57,679
40 50 60 of them from different parts of

913
00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:58,720
the world

914
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:01,120
so so that's not in dispute so so these

915
00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:02,640
scholars you were mentioning earlier who

916
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,399
say no these are all culturally

917
00:33:09,269 --> 00:33:06,640
generated that is basically

918
00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:09,279
you know indisputable proof

919
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,600
that these experiences preceded their

920
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:13,519
beliefs and the only way to argue that

921
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:15,200
they weren't is to say all of those

922
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:16,640
people were lying

923
00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:19,440
you know essentially and and which is a

924
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:21,360
totally ethnocentric you know pretty

925
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:23,039
racist thing to say

926
00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:24,559
yeah you've really

927
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:27,200
come out in the appendix the first

928
00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:28,320
appendix

929
00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:30,720
i think very appropriately

930
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:32,480
call to task

931
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,240
what's going on here

932
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:36,159
with exactly what you just described and

933
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:40,000
how it is absurd it's not reasonable it

934
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:43,200
isn't logical it isn't very convincing

935
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:44,159
so

936
00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:46,159
i'll read a quote

937
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,039
from

938
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:49,679
that appendix the humanities have

939
00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:52,240
limited our knowledge of the origins and

940
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:54,880
development of religious and ritual

941
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:58,240
systems and therefore of human cultural

942
00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:04,230
i want to go the next step with that but

943
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:07,279
the first thing we have to do is

944
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:09,280
make sure we're getting that

945
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:11,679
how is that limiting

946
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:14,159
our cultural development i would say how

947
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:16,480
is it directing our cultural development

948
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:18,480
a certain way

949
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:21,119
i would say it's denying that there is

950
00:34:25,750 --> 00:34:23,280
any value or importance to these

951
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:25,760
experiences or even the next stage of

952
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:28,320
denying that they even happen

953
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,119
is turning a blind eye to a whole

954
00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:33,679
category of human phenomena that's been

955
00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:35,520
you know attested for

956
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:36,960
pretty much as long as humans have been

957
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:39,919
recording their experiences um i think

958
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:42,800
the earliest you know andy is probably

959
00:34:46,950 --> 00:34:44,960
in the the precursor to the epic of

960
00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:46,960
gilgamesh epic of gilgamesh is old

961
00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:49,760
enough but the actual earlier sumerian

962
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:50,720
version

963
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,639
so there's you know

964
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:54,879
the idea that

965
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:56,320
you know for all these thousands of

966
00:35:01,030 --> 00:34:58,160
years in pretty much every cultural

967
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:01,040
region of the planet people have just

968
00:35:06,069 --> 00:35:04,320
been making things up and let's instead

969
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,079
look at the world through our own sort

970
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:09,200
of mechanistic materialistic scientific

971
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,400
viewpoint

972
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:12,400
and say that no it's all culture and

973
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:14,240
it's all in the brain

974
00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:15,119
uh

975
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:17,119
to me that's a pretty limited way of of

976
00:35:21,349 --> 00:35:19,200
looking at the world and it's also

977
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,359
ignoring i mean even just as a in an

978
00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:23,920
anthropological way it's ignoring

979
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:27,200
the most key experience type that could

980
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:29,839
explain afterlife beliefs and i just and

981
00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:32,079
that to me seems completely illogical

982
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:34,480
and unreasonable and it's faith rather

983
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:36,640
than science it's people sticking to

984
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:37,359
their

985
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:39,920
predetermined philosophical paradigms

986
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:41,200
rather than looking at the actual

987
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:44,160
evidence and extrapolating from it and

988
00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:45,680
i'd go one step further and say there

989
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:47,680
might be a purpose behind it and the

990
00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:50,160
purpose may be that to

991
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:52,000
promote the idea that you are a

992
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:53,839
biological robot in a meaningless

993
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:57,200
universe makes you easier to control i

994
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:58,880
mean we're going through that right now

995
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:00,720
with whatever you think about the

996
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:03,920
pandemic and the great reset and the

997
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:06,800
economic forum that is

998
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:09,920
exactly what they've cited now is that

999
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:13,920
science proves that we are

1000
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:16,320
meaningless in terms of the larger

1001
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,960
universe we do it and it just falls

1002
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,160
right out of that there's no such thing

1003
00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:22,000
as a soul there's no such thing as god

1004
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:23,119
all of that

1005
00:36:28,870 --> 00:36:26,640
and i connect that to just then than the

1006
00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:28,880
decisions we would make

1007
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:31,680
about how to organize and run our

1008
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:34,480
society slash culture and how to do that

1009
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:36,720
moving forward and whether we should all

1010
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:41,280
be in a hive mind as dr dean rayden

1011
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:43,599
recently said in an interview with him

1012
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:46,640
all those questions the philosophical

1013
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:49,760
underpinning to those is exactly this

1014
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:50,880
point

1015
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:54,240
are you essentially a biological robot

1016
00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:56,800
in a meaningless universe or is there

1017
00:37:01,030 --> 00:36:58,720
evidence that you are more whatever that

1018
00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:01,040
more is you know we don't have to

1019
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:03,440
throw jesus in there but in there just

1020
00:37:09,109 --> 00:37:06,800
is there more or is there not more and i

1021
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:09,119
think you're rightfully calling out

1022
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:11,359
these folks and saying hey

1023
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:13,680
the evidence overwhelmingly is

1024
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:14,640
more

1025
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:16,160
now we just have to figure out what that

1026
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:19,359
more is and here are some clues that are

1027
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:21,520
being kind of laid at our feet to try

1028
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:23,599
and put together what do you think about

1029
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:24,560
that

1030
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:29,440
extrapolation of it all and

1031
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:31,280
you know one thing that

1032
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:32,960
you know despite all the divisions and

1033
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:34,880
chaos going on in the world

1034
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:36,960
uh one thing that we all share in common

1035
00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:39,440
is that we're gonna die essentially and

1036
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:40,480
the other thing that we'll share in

1037
00:37:45,349 --> 00:37:43,119
common is that we really don't know

1038
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:45,359
you know we might believe but we don't

1039
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:46,720
know what's going to happen to us when

1040
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:47,920
we die

1041
00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:50,960
so that's something that really should

1042
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,800
in a sense bring us together and and

1043
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:54,480
it's a commonality that you know it's

1044
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:57,520
the great leveler uh the death

1045
00:38:01,030 --> 00:37:59,040
throughout history

1046
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:01,040
it has brought us together

1047
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:03,040
right i mean isn't that part of history

1048
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:04,560
is that

1049
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:06,640
that is the humanity that we share even

1050
00:38:09,990 --> 00:38:08,079
when we see that we're not sharing it

1051
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:10,000
and we veer away from it ultimately

1052
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:11,839
people come together and they go i

1053
00:38:16,069 --> 00:38:14,480
realize your loss because something

1054
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:16,079
happened that you know what i mean and

1055
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:22,069
for some reason can't do that about the

1056
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:22,960
other

1057
00:38:26,069 --> 00:38:24,480
you know about people that we perceive

1058
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:26,079
as different from us and and the you

1059
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:28,880
know i don't want to get political but

1060
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,720
the war in ukraine is a good example

1061
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:32,480
you've got you know and it's a horrible

1062
00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:34,160
thing i'm not gonna you know belittle

1063
00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:36,480
that or diminish that in any sense but

1064
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:39,359
um there have also been at the same time

1065
00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:41,359
you know equal suffering and equally

1066
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:43,040
horrible wars going on in countries

1067
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:45,440
where people are of darker skin

1068
00:38:48,550 --> 00:38:47,280
people who are not

1069
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:48,560
like us and you know when the world

1070
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:50,160
first started happening

1071
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:51,520
the media was

1072
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:52,960
a lot of the reflections in the media

1073
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:54,720
was like oh but they look just like us

1074
00:38:58,470 --> 00:38:56,480
these are people just like us these

1075
00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:58,480
aren't people in the in the middle east

1076
00:39:03,109 --> 00:39:01,040
you know wearing uh rags on their heads

1077
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:03,119
or whatever you know horrible term they

1078
00:39:07,030 --> 00:39:04,320
would use

1079
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:07,040
so so you're right you know people will

1080
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:09,520
be brought together with death and and

1081
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:11,280
suffering and mourning if they're within

1082
00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:13,359
their own community but why can't they

1083
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:16,240
also say you know that person's death is

1084
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:18,480
equally as tragic as mine

1085
00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:20,880
or or as my family members

1086
00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:22,000
i'm with you

1087
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:23,520
100

1088
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:25,680
but we don't even have a shot of it if

1089
00:39:29,750 --> 00:39:27,599
we buy into

1090
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:29,760
biological robot meaningless universe

1091
00:39:34,230 --> 00:39:32,079
then there's no reason to even

1092
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:34,240
contemplate the

1093
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:36,960
injustice the inequality the all the

1094
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:38,480
rest of it which

1095
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:40,000
i know you're down with you know what i

1096
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:41,680
thought might be

1097
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:43,680
interesting

1098
00:39:47,510 --> 00:39:44,800
is to

1099
00:39:49,589 --> 00:39:47,520
kind of get your take on

1100
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:49,599
where you think we stand based on your

1101
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:53,040
research about some of the biggest

1102
00:39:57,349 --> 00:39:54,400
questions that people have about the

1103
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:57,359
near-death experience so one is

1104
00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:59,359
hell i mean there's no two ways about it

1105
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:01,520
you know people suppress asking that

1106
00:40:06,309 --> 00:40:04,319
question but that really is number one

1107
00:40:07,750 --> 00:40:06,319
for a lot of people is

1108
00:40:09,589 --> 00:40:07,760
is there a chance i'm gonna go to hell

1109
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:09,599
is that whole thing real

1110
00:40:13,589 --> 00:40:12,160
so from what you've learned how do you

1111
00:40:14,950 --> 00:40:13,599
sort that out

1112
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:14,960
i mean there are

1113
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:16,079
negative

1114
00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:17,920
distressing or hellish or whatever you

1115
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:20,480
want to call them ndes they're not very

1116
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:22,319
common and

1117
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:24,400
i think there's some argument that

1118
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:25,520
they're

1119
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:27,760
you know more disorganized than her than

1120
00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:30,400
a more positive more typical nde then

1121
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:33,359
maybe they're more hallucinatory can you

1122
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:35,200
think of some cases can you think of

1123
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:36,800
some stories you you have a bunch of

1124
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:43,990
i remember this i remember this last

1125
00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:46,720
time that uh you probably got like a

1126
00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:49,280
million of these things

1127
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:51,200
in your head

1128
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:53,200
spanish monk named peter died and

1129
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:55,200
restored a life he described seeing men

1130
00:40:59,030 --> 00:40:56,400
he knew

1131
00:41:02,630 --> 00:40:59,040
suffering torments in hell and being

1132
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:02,640
rescued by the same fate by an angel

1133
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:04,560
and you have a bunch of other

1134
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:07,119
uh medieval accounts this is in the 15th

1135
00:41:11,109 --> 00:41:08,800
16th century

1136
00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:11,119
yeah a lot of there's a lot of hellish

1137
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:13,599
medieval accounts um

1138
00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:15,040
and there's also a lot of hellish

1139
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:16,560
buddhist accounts

1140
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:17,839
and i think

1141
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:20,480
that very much reflects those religions

1142
00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:22,640
you know a medieval christianity

1143
00:41:26,309 --> 00:41:24,560
gregory you got some hellish

1144
00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:26,319
native american accounts in there too

1145
00:41:29,349 --> 00:41:27,280
right

1146
00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:29,359
yeah there's a couple but but i think

1147
00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:31,839
overall there's a there's not a pattern

1148
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:34,079
i think of hellish native american

1149
00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:35,359
american ones

1150
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:36,880
and it's not that you know the medieval

1151
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:37,839
and

1152
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:40,400
uh buddhist medieval ones as well have a

1153
00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:42,319
monopoly on hellish mds but i think

1154
00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:43,920
there is an overall

1155
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:46,319
concern with them and that

1156
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:48,960
i think reflects the overall concern

1157
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:51,359
within the religions for for going to

1158
00:41:54,550 --> 00:41:52,960
hell and for suffering

1159
00:41:56,710 --> 00:41:54,560
and a lot of them especially the

1160
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:56,720
medieval ones a lot of them are really

1161
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:57,680
long

1162
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:01,040
uh they're they're obviously um

1163
00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:03,200
you know elaborated

1164
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:05,359
uh i would say even i would even go so

1165
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:07,119
far as to say they're either totally

1166
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:08,800
literary based on

1167
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:10,640
some earlier nde

1168
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:12,640
or they have a kernel of an nde in there

1169
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:13,839
but have been

1170
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,640
turned into this you know didactic

1171
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:19,040
educating teaching thing to to warn

1172
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:21,200
people about the dangers of hell and

1173
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:23,359
um to behave better so they so they'll

1174
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:24,640
go to heaven

1175
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,440
um

1176
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:27,359
which is not to say you know that these

1177
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:29,680
monks didn't have a negative or

1178
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,800
distressing nde especially if they're

1179
00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:34,240
sitting around all day

1180
00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:36,640
drawing pictures of demons and you know

1181
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:38,800
they've got these ideas in their head

1182
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:39,920
so um

1183
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:41,040
so i think they're

1184
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:42,400
and i guess that brings us all the way

1185
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:45,359
back to the whole question of um

1186
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:46,720
how much are they creating their own

1187
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:48,880
experience because they're expecting a

1188
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:50,960
hellish nde

1189
00:42:55,349 --> 00:42:52,560
and how much would they have had it

1190
00:42:57,670 --> 00:42:55,359
anyway if if they weren't constantly you

1191
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:57,680
know delving into that that kind of

1192
00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:00,079
imagery and and ideas

1193
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:02,160
well a bunch of thoughts popped in mind

1194
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:05,119
but one is that the shamanic accounts

1195
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:07,040
certainly are

1196
00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:09,359
have plenty of accounts of those places

1197
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:11,040
that you don't want to go

1198
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:13,200
right and you got to believe you know

1199
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:14,800
just based on the natural conclusion

1200
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:16,720
from your work is that

1201
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:18,240
there's a relationship there between the

1202
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:19,920
near-death experience accounts and the

1203
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,000
shamanic journeying knowledge and their

1204
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,079
inner playing with each other

1205
00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:26,400
what advice do you have in terms of how

1206
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:29,440
we go about the counting process you

1207
00:43:35,589 --> 00:43:32,640
know which we're all into 84 of indy

1208
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:35,599
ears experience this and 22

1209
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:37,680
of women in you know

1210
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:40,160
i see that i see both sides of that i

1211
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,720
mean we want that we need that and to a

1212
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:45,040
certain extent and in other ways we

1213
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:46,720
don't know what we're looking at we're

1214
00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:47,760
looking at

1215
00:43:51,829 --> 00:43:49,599
still a relatively few number of

1216
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:51,839
accounts we don't know the process by

1217
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:54,400
which those are being filtered just from

1218
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:56,319
a physiological standpoint why are some

1219
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:58,000
people remembering some people aren't

1220
00:44:01,750 --> 00:43:59,599
and in what

1221
00:44:04,069 --> 00:44:01,760
distress states of dying or you know

1222
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:04,079
others just we could be totally looking

1223
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:04,880
at

1224
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:09,440
about counting

1225
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:11,040
yeah that's a great question i don't

1226
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:12,079
know

1227
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:13,839
i i think with the historical and

1228
00:44:17,109 --> 00:44:15,440
cross-cultural stuff it's impossible

1229
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:17,119
because there just aren't enough records

1230
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:18,160
out there

1231
00:44:22,309 --> 00:44:20,960
but as far as yeah how many people

1232
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:22,319
you know in the united states for

1233
00:44:26,309 --> 00:44:24,640
example have ndes

1234
00:44:27,910 --> 00:44:26,319
who have been temporarily dead

1235
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:27,920
clinically temporarily dead and come

1236
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,520
back to life

1237
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:31,520
and what percentage of those see a

1238
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:33,520
tunnel what percentage you know see a

1239
00:44:37,829 --> 00:44:35,040
being of light

1240
00:44:39,670 --> 00:44:37,839
every time i start kind of trying to

1241
00:44:41,349 --> 00:44:39,680
you know get to some conclusion about

1242
00:44:44,630 --> 00:44:41,359
that it just starts seeming like like

1243
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:44,640
chaos to me and it's almost like with uh

1244
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:46,319
with mediumship or with like trickster

1245
00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:48,000
stuff that you mentioned it's almost

1246
00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:49,920
like the closer you get or the closer

1247
00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:51,839
you feel like you're getting to some you

1248
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:53,520
know scientific

1249
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:55,599
uh objective understanding

1250
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:58,160
of this stuff um it takes a step further

1251
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:00,560
back you know it's it's like a receding

1252
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,480
landscape as as you're

1253
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:04,960
trying to get closer to it and this kind

1254
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:06,880
of reminds me too like you know the

1255
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,880
grayson scale of ndes

1256
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:11,520
which and and even moody trying to find

1257
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:14,000
you know these 15 elements and then

1258
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:15,839
moody himself saying

1259
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,680
these are the elements of an nde however

1260
00:45:21,990 --> 00:45:19,280
not everybody has

1261
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,000
each of those experiences and then

1262
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:24,240
subsequent researchers like grayson and

1263
00:45:27,670 --> 00:45:26,160
whoever else coming along and saying

1264
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:27,680
okay let's try to narrow this down let's

1265
00:45:30,630 --> 00:45:29,520
try to figure out what um

1266
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:30,640
all these

1267
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:32,079
elements actually are and actually they

1268
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:33,599
get expanded

1269
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:35,920
far beyond what grayson said but

1270
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:37,599
these are the particular ones that all

1271
00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:39,440
indie years and it's just impossible you

1272
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,359
know there's it's it's proven i mean

1273
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:42,720
they're great tools and and they're

1274
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:44,400
necessary for us to

1275
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:47,440
identify this repertoire from which ndes

1276
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:50,400
pull your repertoire of sub experiences

1277
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:51,839
but yeah i don't think we're ever going

1278
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,440
to get to

1279
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:55,920
all nd years have this experience and

1280
00:45:59,270 --> 00:45:57,119
and that's

1281
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:59,280
to me reflects the possibility that

1282
00:46:03,190 --> 00:46:01,359
maybe we just don't all have the same

1283
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:03,200
kind of afterlife

1284
00:46:07,589 --> 00:46:05,200
absolutely that's a great point and i

1285
00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,599
think grayson himself is

1286
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:09,440
has tried to kind of pump the brakes a

1287
00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:11,280
little bit and say hey yeah you know

1288
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:12,160
great

1289
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:15,040
glad it's useful as a tool but

1290
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:17,359
realize it's limitations here you know

1291
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:18,880
yeah i think that's great

1292
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:20,880
and i guess that relates to kind of

1293
00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:21,760
another

1294
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,440
one that i'd like you to kind of process

1295
00:46:27,589 --> 00:46:24,960
is the big one

1296
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:27,599
is this hierarchical nature of

1297
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:29,680
consciousness and

1298
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,760
you know is there uh

1299
00:46:35,910 --> 00:46:34,079
it's commonly reported in the western

1300
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:35,920
things you know i saw

1301
00:46:40,870 --> 00:46:38,720
jesus i saw god i saw even just i saw

1302
00:46:43,109 --> 00:46:40,880
angels i saw beings that knew more than

1303
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:43,119
i could ever know i saw people beings

1304
00:46:47,510 --> 00:46:45,280
that assisted me i saw light you know

1305
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:47,520
all the rest that suggest and they

1306
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:49,599
suggested that there was more beyond it

1307
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:50,960
and that there was this hierarchical

1308
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:52,640
nature of it and then you hear other

1309
00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:55,520
accounts that are more kind of uh

1310
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,200
not so much you know just kind of i

1311
00:47:01,030 --> 00:46:59,040
moved into the light i moved into the

1312
00:47:03,430 --> 00:47:01,040
love it was a kind of the unity

1313
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:03,440
consciousness thing how are you

1314
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:05,520
processing that question from the

1315
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:08,480
accounts you've looked at

1316
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:10,560
i tend to think that it looks kind of

1317
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:12,480
along the tibetan buddhist

1318
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:13,760
belief

1319
00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:15,440
or theory really

1320
00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:18,160
that it's sort of a case of overlaying

1321
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:19,200
our own

1322
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:21,599
perceptions and symbols and and cultural

1323
00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:24,720
consciousness onto these experiences

1324
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:27,359
that exist in any case so i'm not saying

1325
00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:30,160
we're creating the experience but we're

1326
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,559
you know projecting our own symbols onto

1327
00:47:34,870 --> 00:47:34,160
the experience

1328
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:34,880
so

1329
00:47:42,069 --> 00:47:39,839
as you know uncle joe again or a

1330
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:42,079
grandparent or parent or whatever

1331
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:44,400
and some people might think it's jesus

1332
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:45,839
and some people might think it's the

1333
00:47:50,309 --> 00:47:48,160
buddha or muhammad or whatever

1334
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:50,319
to me that's the

1335
00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:51,280
most

1336
00:47:56,309 --> 00:47:53,920
logical way of making sense of all of it

1337
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:56,319
um because

1338
00:48:00,549 --> 00:47:58,000
it's you know otherwise it brings up too

1339
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:00,559
many questions of well why isn't this

1340
00:48:04,230 --> 00:48:02,720
person seeing jesus and it's like well

1341
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:04,240
okay because they're a muslim you know

1342
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:06,800
why would they see jesus but you know of

1343
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:08,160
course evangelical christians aren't

1344
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:10,319
going to like the answer because

1345
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:12,800
jesus has to be the objective son of god

1346
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:15,200
for the entire world not just for them

1347
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,800
and it would be the same with muslims or

1348
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,079
anyone else

1349
00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:20,720
and i think your work goes way beyond

1350
00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:23,359
the kind of usual religious stuff

1351
00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:25,359
uh again and that's the advantage of you

1352
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:27,119
know going cross culture

1353
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:28,079
but

1354
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:29,680
what do you think about

1355
00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:33,119
kind of the the love positive feeling

1356
00:48:39,109 --> 00:48:36,400
you know all that kind of stuff

1357
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:39,119
is also suggestive in a way of the same

1358
00:48:42,710 --> 00:48:40,800
thing you know

1359
00:48:44,069 --> 00:48:42,720
yeah so there's different ways you slice

1360
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:44,079
it so you can slice and dice and say

1361
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:46,720
there's this overlay yeah we get it but

1362
00:48:49,829 --> 00:48:47,760
is there

1363
00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:49,839
are there there you know i mean i think

1364
00:48:53,109 --> 00:48:51,119
whenever i hear people talk about the

1365
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:53,119
buddhist stuff and they talk about it

1366
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:55,040
from this atheistic perspective and i

1367
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:57,040
want to go time out that's purely a way

1368
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:58,800
you want to talk about a western overlay

1369
00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:00,880
there's no buddhist

1370
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:02,880
in history that could even connect with

1371
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:04,160
the idea of being atheist i mean that

1372
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:05,760
was

1373
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:08,319
assumed that of course there is you know

1374
00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:10,880
this ultimate consciousness and it's

1375
00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:12,640
good and it's loving and it's all the

1376
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:15,280
rest of that so

1377
00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:17,440
and i think that's uh that comes through

1378
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:19,200
in the work and in the accounts that you

1379
00:49:22,549 --> 00:49:20,960
have of this

1380
00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:22,559
goodness which is the most widely

1381
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:23,920
reported

1382
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:25,520
experience among the near-death

1383
00:49:29,829 --> 00:49:28,319
experience is love is this indescribable

1384
00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:29,839
love it's not the tunnel it's not their

1385
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:33,040
life review it's that i just felt home i

1386
00:49:38,069 --> 00:49:35,839
felt love i felt connection

1387
00:49:39,990 --> 00:49:38,079
and i see that all over the place in the

1388
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:40,000
accounts you're talking about

1389
00:49:44,069 --> 00:49:41,760
yeah yeah it's maybe not always putting

1390
00:49:46,470 --> 00:49:44,079
those terms exactly but

1391
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:46,480
it is almost always you know

1392
00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:48,640
the the negative distressing accounts

1393
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,800
leaving them aside for now but it is

1394
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:52,319
almost always

1395
00:49:57,349 --> 00:49:54,400
a place of something positive

1396
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:57,359
a place where the person brings back

1397
00:50:00,790 --> 00:49:59,599
some kind of positive knowledge or some

1398
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:00,800
kind of new

1399
00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:02,960
um religious tradition or cultural

1400
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:04,079
tradition

1401
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:05,440
there's an example i always think of

1402
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:07,760
from native american accounts where the

1403
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:09,760
guy was told

1404
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:12,880
you need to go back and tell your people

1405
00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:14,480
that wife-beating

1406
00:50:19,430 --> 00:50:16,800
is not acceptable

1407
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:19,440
for one thing and for another thing the

1408
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:21,440
the dead don't need your offerings we

1409
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:22,720
don't need you

1410
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:24,640
to keep you know basically wasting your

1411
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:28,400
resources by slaughtering buffalo or you

1412
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:30,480
know burning grain or whatever because

1413
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,000
you know the belief was that they would

1414
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:33,920
burn these offerings and that they would

1415
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:36,160
ascend to the other world and feed the

1416
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:38,079
the ancestors and they said we don't

1417
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:39,040
need them

1418
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:41,200
so that's obviously a positive thing for

1419
00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:42,400
the community

1420
00:50:46,150 --> 00:50:44,720
so they have you know better resources

1421
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:46,160
and they don't have to to be wasteful

1422
00:50:49,670 --> 00:50:47,200
they don't have to hunt as much or

1423
00:50:51,910 --> 00:50:49,680
whatever so that's not necessarily

1424
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:51,920
necessarily love explicitly but these

1425
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:54,480
are all things that are beneficial to to

1426
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:55,760
society

1427
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:57,760
and that's that is really a

1428
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:59,200
cross-cultural

1429
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:01,440
consistency that that there's

1430
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:03,520
you know nobody has told in the other

1431
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:05,200
world you know

1432
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:07,200
you need to go back to your body because

1433
00:51:11,109 --> 00:51:09,440
you have to go um

1434
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:11,119
i don't know do a school shooting that's

1435
00:51:15,270 --> 00:51:13,680
that's that's the uh you know your your

1436
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:15,280
destiny that you need to fulfill once

1437
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:16,800
you've done that you can come back you

1438
00:51:21,670 --> 00:51:19,520
know that that doesn't happen

1439
00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:21,680
i think that you know what full stop

1440
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:23,520
right there it's really interesting that

1441
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:24,960
that never

1442
00:51:28,549 --> 00:51:27,280
happens and you can go search

1443
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:28,559
jeff long's

1444
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:31,599
nder f database and you can google

1445
00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:33,359
search for thousands and thousands of

1446
00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:36,480
accounts it's never there so kind of

1447
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:38,800
interesting on that thing and

1448
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:41,520
related point to that i guess is the

1449
00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:43,839
moral imperative question

1450
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:45,920
that again you know the accounts that i

1451
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:47,599
remember and i want to make sure i'm not

1452
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:50,400
just kind of cherry picking but

1453
00:51:57,309 --> 00:51:52,800
so many accounts from so many different

1454
00:52:00,630 --> 00:51:57,319
traditions including kind of more these

1455
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:00,640
non-western cultures where they say you

1456
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:02,960
know do good go back and change your

1457
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,760
wicked ways and be better and be a

1458
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:07,440
better man you know kind of thing

1459
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:09,280
thoughts on on the moral imperative and

1460
00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:10,720
do good

1461
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:12,640
yeah yeah there's a famous one that i

1462
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:16,000
like by um aj ayer who is a materialist

1463
00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:17,280
philosopher

1464
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,920
and after he had his nde and came back

1465
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:21,599
his wife said you know he's much better

1466
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:24,000
since he died he's a much nicer person

1467
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:24,880
so

1468
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:27,520
but yeah that's that is a pretty

1469
00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:30,000
universal common thing too and it's

1470
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:31,680
again you know bringing back

1471
00:52:36,309 --> 00:52:34,960
new strictures new ideas and and new

1472
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:36,319
you know recommendations for better

1473
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:38,960
behavior things like that but it's also

1474
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:40,480
a pretty common

1475
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:41,839
and this is interesting in light of

1476
00:52:45,109 --> 00:52:43,359
light of that question

1477
00:52:46,470 --> 00:52:45,119
pretty commonly are told go back and

1478
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:46,480
tell people

1479
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:48,160
about your experience and that there is

1480
00:52:53,349 --> 00:52:50,880
another world and that you know teach

1481
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:53,359
them about the afterlife essentially

1482
00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:56,240
so that's almost seen as um

1483
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:58,559
you know a moral imperative thing to do

1484
00:53:02,309 --> 00:53:00,480
that people need to learn

1485
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:02,319
about these kinds of experiences and

1486
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:03,280
maybe

1487
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:04,720
you know going back to what i was saying

1488
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:06,960
earlier that you know the one thing we

1489
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:09,040
have in common is we're all going to die

1490
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:11,119
maybe that's the kind of thing that

1491
00:53:15,829 --> 00:53:13,040
people need to hear that um there is

1492
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:15,839
this something beyond this this current

1493
00:53:18,309 --> 00:53:17,040
world

1494
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:18,319
that um

1495
00:53:22,390 --> 00:53:20,960
you know we're all going to

1496
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:22,400
i don't know

1497
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,599
think about what you're doing now

1498
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,720
because

1499
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:26,400
we're going to be going to another

1500
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:27,599
um

1501
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:31,680
metamorphosis at a later date

1502
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:34,240
so gregory what do you think about

1503
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:35,119
the

1504
00:53:40,309 --> 00:53:37,680
technology angle to this because as a

1505
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,319
lot of people have pointed out

1506
00:53:44,950 --> 00:53:43,119
it seems to us that we have more indie

1507
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:44,960
ears around than ever before because we

1508
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:46,880
have this advanced medical technology

1509
00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:49,280
that allows us to resuscitate people i

1510
00:53:52,630 --> 00:53:50,880
think that's kind of undeniable you

1511
00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:52,640
can't really get around that

1512
00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:54,640
how are you processing that in this

1513
00:54:02,630 --> 00:54:00,710
is there some limitation to the message

1514
00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:02,640
coming through that

1515
00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:04,400
you know is being

1516
00:54:08,549 --> 00:54:06,319
helped along by

1517
00:54:10,069 --> 00:54:08,559
technology i'm just i can't get

1518
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:10,079
comfortable with that but that seems to

1519
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:10,960
be

1520
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:12,400
somewhere some of the data's leading

1521
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:13,680
what do you think

1522
00:54:18,230 --> 00:54:15,680
you mean that take the people brought

1523
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:18,240
back from with technology

1524
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:20,800
are having more limited experiences or

1525
00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:22,559
not not more limited just there's more

1526
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:24,000
of them so

1527
00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:25,280
what does it mean that there's more

1528
00:54:31,109 --> 00:54:28,319
near-death experiences now than there

1529
00:54:32,390 --> 00:54:31,119
were 50 years ago and one do we think

1530
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:32,400
that's true

1531
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:33,839
and then two

1532
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:35,920
what would possibly you know back to

1533
00:54:39,750 --> 00:54:37,680
what you're saying about you know go

1534
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:39,760
tell the people you know is there a way

1535
00:54:43,349 --> 00:54:41,920
of go tell the people you know we we

1536
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:43,359
give them those paddles and then they'll

1537
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:46,000
come back and more people tell people

1538
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:48,079
yeah now that that is a

1539
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:50,160
a good point and

1540
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:52,319
you know when i say like i found 70

1541
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:54,960
examples of native american ndes

1542
00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:56,960
70 might seem like a lot because before

1543
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:57,839
that

1544
00:55:01,510 --> 00:54:59,440
people only knew about five or ten of

1545
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:01,520
them were acknowledged

1546
00:55:05,150 --> 00:55:04,160
um but that's over a period of you know

1547
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:05,160
from

1548
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:08,960
1589 to the 1940s or something

1549
00:55:12,870 --> 00:55:10,880
so 70 over that amount of time it really

1550
00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:12,880
isn't that many when you have probably

1551
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:14,720
hundreds a day

1552
00:55:19,109 --> 00:55:16,480
uh happening now so

1553
00:55:20,870 --> 00:55:19,119
yeah conceivably um you know it would be

1554
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:20,880
nice if if

1555
00:55:24,309 --> 00:55:22,400
this culture

1556
00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:24,319
were open enough

1557
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:26,319
for people who have nds to be able to

1558
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:27,920
come back and

1559
00:55:31,589 --> 00:55:29,680
feel safe talking about them but i think

1560
00:55:32,470 --> 00:55:31,599
there's still a stigma about that so i

1561
00:55:33,430 --> 00:55:32,480
think

1562
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:33,440
um

1563
00:55:36,309 --> 00:55:35,520
any of those figures are probably skewed

1564
00:55:38,069 --> 00:55:36,319
by

1565
00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:38,079
the idea that um a lot of people are

1566
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:39,440
just too afraid to talk about them

1567
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:40,559
because they're going to be seen as

1568
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:41,680
crazy

1569
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:42,799
um

1570
00:55:46,549 --> 00:55:44,400
and you know

1571
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:46,559
given psych drugs or whatever

1572
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,960
um ostracized by their community and

1573
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:50,319
even you know that's also a factor

1574
00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:51,920
cross-culturally because

1575
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:54,240
in um some of the

1576
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:58,160
micronesian and australian and african

1577
00:56:02,309 --> 00:55:59,839
tribal accounts

1578
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:02,319
there was a sort of hostility to people

1579
00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:04,799
seeming to come back to life

1580
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:06,480
so uh you know in our

1581
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:09,359
in western cultures generally speaking

1582
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:10,480
uh if

1583
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:12,480
one of our loved ones died and came back

1584
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:13,920
we'd be rushing to their side and

1585
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:15,599
everyone would be you know crying in

1586
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:17,119
tears of joy and saying this is a

1587
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:18,160
miracle

1588
00:56:21,990 --> 00:56:19,920
uh but in some other cultures they would

1589
00:56:25,349 --> 00:56:22,000
be seen as like you know uh oh

1590
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:25,359
um yeah he's demonic yeah yeah a zombie

1591
00:56:29,109 --> 00:56:26,960
has come back to life where this person

1592
00:56:31,750 --> 00:56:29,119
must be possessed by sorcery and they're

1593
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:31,760
a threat to the community and yeah we

1594
00:56:36,549 --> 00:56:34,240
need to put a stop to that and and

1595
00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:36,559
another interesting thing about that is

1596
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:39,200
one of the reasons there are so few ndes

1597
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:41,440
in uh those cultures aside from the fact

1598
00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:43,760
that they they might be be killed if if

1599
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:45,280
they come back is that they would

1600
00:56:47,829 --> 00:56:46,400
actually go to

1601
00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:47,839
to quite

1602
00:56:52,470 --> 00:56:49,760
you know extreme measures to prevent

1603
00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:52,480
people from coming back so if somebody

1604
00:56:55,910 --> 00:56:54,160
you know when during a burial they would

1605
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:55,920
bind their hands and feet you'd put

1606
00:57:01,190 --> 00:56:58,400
stones on top of the grave so it's just

1607
00:57:03,829 --> 00:57:01,200
the opposite of you know the modern

1608
00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:03,839
medical advances that bring about more

1609
00:57:07,030 --> 00:57:05,440
resuscitations so it would be

1610
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:07,040
interesting if you know

1611
00:57:10,829 --> 00:57:08,960
different cultures around the world are

1612
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:10,839
starting to get access to this kind of

1613
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:13,440
technology and we get more and more ndes

1614
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:15,920
from you know smaller cultures and you

1615
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:18,799
know thailand and tibet and

1616
00:57:22,710 --> 00:57:20,640
arab countries and whatever you know

1617
00:57:24,950 --> 00:57:22,720
they're very few muslim indies known for

1618
00:57:26,230 --> 00:57:24,960
example so

1619
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:26,240
hopefully that will you know that will

1620
00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:27,680
be one of the

1621
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:29,440
the positive effects of the of these

1622
00:57:32,630 --> 00:57:30,799
technologies

1623
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:32,640
and and just returning to that one

1624
00:57:35,190 --> 00:57:33,680
second

1625
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:35,200
but you don't make

1626
00:57:38,829 --> 00:57:37,280
anything of the fact that that

1627
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:38,839
technology has

1628
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:41,119
advanced i mean back to this thing

1629
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:42,720
there's this moving target right there's

1630
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:44,160
this new death experience science

1631
00:57:47,910 --> 00:57:45,520
there's this increased awareness there's

1632
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:47,920
this cultural change and now boom at the

1633
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:51,040
same time this technology emerges that

1634
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:52,720
is suddenly

1635
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:55,440
you know making this much more

1636
00:57:58,470 --> 00:57:56,799
prevalent so there's a lot of people

1637
00:58:00,549 --> 00:57:58,480
that jump to some kind of

1638
00:58:02,470 --> 00:58:00,559
metaphysical conclusions about that i

1639
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:02,480
don't necessarily want to go there but i

1640
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:05,200
don't want to limit the possibility is a

1641
00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:08,160
reason why the technologies advanced at

1642
00:58:11,589 --> 00:58:09,440
this time

1643
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:11,599
i say you mean yeah wow i don't know

1644
00:58:14,789 --> 00:58:12,880
yeah i mean that's

1645
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:14,799
i wouldn't even know how to how to go

1646
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:16,480
about

1647
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:18,880
addressing a question like that because

1648
00:58:22,390 --> 00:58:20,720
to me it opens up too many

1649
00:58:23,750 --> 00:58:22,400
cans and worms because

1650
00:58:24,870 --> 00:58:23,760
who's uh

1651
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:24,880
who would be

1652
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:26,400
responsible

1653
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:29,200
for in introducing that technology to us

1654
00:58:32,309 --> 00:58:31,119
you know who is determining that there's

1655
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:32,319
a reason

1656
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:34,559
and all that kind of

1657
00:58:38,789 --> 00:58:36,720
that yeah there's too many things to

1658
00:58:39,829 --> 00:58:38,799
accept before they'd be willing to go

1659
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:39,839
there

1660
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:42,720
fair enough and i think as anyone who

1661
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:44,640
reads the book we'll see

1662
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:46,319
you are really

1663
00:58:49,109 --> 00:58:47,680
you know rolling your sleeves up and

1664
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:49,119
digging into these

1665
00:58:52,549 --> 00:58:50,640
tough issues

1666
00:58:54,950 --> 00:58:52,559
surrounding that but you're not going to

1667
00:58:57,910 --> 00:58:54,960
be kind of pushed into

1668
00:58:59,750 --> 00:58:57,920
wild speculation that ventures beyond

1669
00:59:01,670 --> 00:58:59,760
where your data is taking you and that's

1670
00:59:04,150 --> 00:59:01,680
what we're looking for

1671
00:59:06,069 --> 00:59:04,160
from your excellent work yeah

1672
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:06,079
thanks yeah i loved in the last

1673
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:08,319
interview we did how your headline for

1674
00:59:15,030 --> 00:59:11,119
it was something like you know gregory

1675
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:16,870
i'm not deliberately trying to wrangle

1676
00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:18,640
but i am you know

1677
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:20,480
i i will pretty much come up with you

1678
00:59:24,309 --> 00:59:22,160
know the opposite argument for for

1679
00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:24,319
whatever or not our opposite argument

1680
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:26,960
but i can i'm willing to see both sides

1681
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:29,520
of of kind of any argument so

1682
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:31,359
which in a way you know it does

1683
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:33,520
frustrate people because people want to

1684
00:59:36,789 --> 00:59:35,359
say oh the cross-cultural similarity

1685
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:36,799
doesn't that just mean it's a dying

1686
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:37,839
brain

1687
00:59:41,430 --> 00:59:40,079
and no that's not really the case and

1688
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:41,440
other people say well doesn't that mean

1689
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:43,119
that you know there's a universal

1690
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:44,400
afterlife and it's all the same

1691
00:59:47,910 --> 00:59:47,040
spirituality no it's not that either you

1692
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:47,920
know

1693
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:50,400
well gregory the the the underlying

1694
00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:53,119
ethos of this show is inquiry to

1695
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:55,440
perpetuate doubt

1696
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:57,200
so you're right at home here buddy let

1697
01:00:01,670 --> 01:00:00,559
me tell you it's uh thanks alex yeah

1698
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:01,680
and but

1699
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:03,440
at the same time because i always like

1700
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:06,640
jumping over on the other side too

1701
01:00:11,430 --> 01:00:09,839
i appreciate the intellectual

1702
01:00:13,510 --> 01:00:11,440
agnostic

1703
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:13,520
openness you know

1704
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:15,040
but like what i always say from a

1705
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:16,720
spiritual perspective none of us are

1706
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:19,920
agnostic we wake up every day and that

1707
01:00:24,549 --> 01:00:21,280
little voice inside our head is

1708
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:24,559
yammering away and we're going to decide

1709
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:27,040
what our relationship is with that

1710
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:28,559
consciousness and that is our

1711
01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:30,079
spirituality

1712
01:00:33,990 --> 01:00:30,880
so

1713
01:00:37,270 --> 01:00:34,000
any insights into

1714
01:00:40,069 --> 01:00:37,280
how you are processing that from uh

1715
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:40,079
from a personal spiritual perspective

1716
01:00:43,990 --> 01:00:41,760
yeah that's a great question because i

1717
01:00:45,829 --> 01:00:44,000
like the mormon example i gave earlier

1718
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:45,839
um with the whole predestiny thing it's

1719
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:47,760
just like i don't even want to go there

1720
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:48,799
you know

1721
01:00:51,349 --> 01:00:50,079
i don't i don't like the idea of

1722
01:00:53,510 --> 01:00:51,359
predestiny

1723
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:53,520
or or these kind of you know quantum

1724
01:00:55,589 --> 01:00:54,720
physics

1725
01:00:57,349 --> 01:00:55,599
type

1726
01:00:58,309 --> 01:00:57,359
explanations for an afterlife or for a

1727
01:01:00,470 --> 01:00:58,319
soul

1728
01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:00,480
it's just you know it's

1729
01:01:05,030 --> 01:01:03,040
it takes me outside of the you know

1730
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:05,040
historical humanities cross-cultural

1731
01:01:09,510 --> 01:01:07,680
stuff and it's interesting but yeah it's

1732
01:01:11,270 --> 01:01:09,520
difficult i i just know i come with my

1733
01:01:13,829 --> 01:01:11,280
own biases another one is you probably

1734
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:13,839
know anthony peake and his his idea that

1735
01:01:18,309 --> 01:01:16,079
we're reliving our own lives over and

1736
01:01:20,150 --> 01:01:18,319
over the groundhog day kind of thing and

1737
01:01:22,309 --> 01:01:20,160
i you know it's really interesting his

1738
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:22,319
work is is interesting

1739
01:01:28,069 --> 01:01:25,119
but i just don't want to you know my

1740
01:01:29,190 --> 01:01:28,079
mind just thinks no don't want to do it

1741
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:29,200
so i don't know if it's just that i

1742
01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:31,280
don't like the idea or that you know it

1743
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:33,599
doesn't correspond with um

1744
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:34,640
you know the other stuff that i'm

1745
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:37,520
finding but we all have our limits of

1746
01:01:40,710 --> 01:01:38,880
where we want to go with this stuff

1747
01:01:43,349 --> 01:01:40,720
aliens and ufos is another one for me

1748
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:43,359
you know i i don't like going to the

1749
01:01:48,549 --> 01:01:45,680
um relationship between there being an

1750
01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:48,559
afterlife and aliens or ayahuasca

1751
01:01:53,109 --> 01:01:50,480
deities being aliens and that that's all

1752
01:01:55,349 --> 01:01:53,119
the same realm as an afterlife

1753
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:55,359
it takes me a little beyond my uh my

1754
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,359
comfort zone

1755
01:02:01,670 --> 01:01:59,440
but i think you do it in a in a smart

1756
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:01,680
way because you don't you know shy away

1757
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:03,359
from like uh

1758
01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:06,880
hallucinogenic kind of experiences in at

1759
01:02:12,789 --> 01:02:09,599
least in terms of mentioning that they

1760
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:12,799
have to be part of this discussion of

1761
01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:14,240
transformative

1762
01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:16,240
non-ordinary experiences and we don't

1763
01:02:19,910 --> 01:02:18,400
know what that means so that has to be

1764
01:02:22,069 --> 01:02:19,920
on the table as well you know the other

1765
01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:22,079
thing i was going to throw in there that

1766
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:23,280
is kind of interesting you know when you

1767
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:26,000
do study the nde even the pre-destiny

1768
01:02:29,029 --> 01:02:27,359
stuff

1769
01:02:30,150 --> 01:02:29,039
it all kind of falls away it's like

1770
01:02:31,109 --> 01:02:30,160
right because there's plenty of accounts

1771
01:02:33,029 --> 01:02:31,119
of people

1772
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:33,039
well you can choose you can go back or

1773
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:34,799
you cannot go back so where is this

1774
01:02:37,990 --> 01:02:36,160
buddy

1775
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:38,000
wait i thought it was all tested you

1776
01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:39,839
know i thought yeah so back to your

1777
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:42,480
point of like do you have to go back do

1778
01:02:46,069 --> 01:02:44,240
you have to die in that order or you

1779
01:02:48,390 --> 01:02:46,079
know what i mean it's like yeah

1780
01:02:50,069 --> 01:02:48,400
it's very same

1781
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:50,079
same with reincarnation you know you've

1782
01:02:52,390 --> 01:02:50,880
got

1783
01:02:54,309 --> 01:02:52,400
in the in the indian traditions in

1784
01:02:56,230 --> 01:02:54,319
hinduism and buddhism you don't have

1785
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:56,240
this idea where you

1786
01:02:59,829 --> 01:02:58,079
choose your next life

1787
01:03:02,230 --> 01:02:59,839
and you know you get to have a preview

1788
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:02,240
of it basically whereas like in the

1789
01:03:05,829 --> 01:03:04,480
western examples you know they often

1790
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:05,839
will say that

1791
01:03:10,789 --> 01:03:07,920
and to me

1792
01:03:13,349 --> 01:03:10,799
that's another place where my you know

1793
01:03:15,270 --> 01:03:13,359
it hits my agnostic threshold where

1794
01:03:16,950 --> 01:03:15,280
i feel like i can accept

1795
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:16,960
the randomness of it

1796
01:03:22,150 --> 01:03:19,440
in in hinduism in buddhism or or the

1797
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:22,160
sort of general karmic progression that

1798
01:03:24,710 --> 01:03:23,280
you know you're going to get a slightly

1799
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:24,720
better life if you did a bit better in

1800
01:03:27,670 --> 01:03:25,920
this life

1801
01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:27,680
but i can't accept everyone choosing

1802
01:03:32,150 --> 01:03:29,920
their own lives because then you know

1803
01:03:33,029 --> 01:03:32,160
who chooses to be

1804
01:03:34,630 --> 01:03:33,039
you know

1805
01:03:36,549 --> 01:03:34,640
a victim of

1806
01:03:38,309 --> 01:03:36,559
violence or in the middle of the war and

1807
01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:38,319
who chooses to be the perpetuator of

1808
01:03:41,430 --> 01:03:39,760
that violence or

1809
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:41,440
so you know it could be that that

1810
01:03:47,109 --> 01:03:43,440
happens and it just really is a totally

1811
01:03:48,950 --> 01:03:47,119
morally a neutral system in the universe

1812
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:48,960
but i sort of choose to think like if

1813
01:03:54,069 --> 01:03:52,559
any of this is is real and true then um

1814
01:03:57,109 --> 01:03:54,079
that kind of thing would doesn't really

1815
01:03:59,430 --> 01:03:57,119
make sense to me the choice of of you

1816
01:04:01,910 --> 01:03:59,440
know participating in

1817
01:04:03,750 --> 01:04:01,920
immoral and violent acts

1818
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:03,760
as as a means to spiritual progression

1819
01:04:07,190 --> 01:04:04,880
you know it's

1820
01:04:09,109 --> 01:04:07,200
it's like a complete it's a twisted kind

1821
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:09,119
of thing to my mind just me

1822
01:04:12,710 --> 01:04:11,280
i agree and as soon as you say that

1823
01:04:15,190 --> 01:04:12,720
people want to jump in and give you all

1824
01:04:16,390 --> 01:04:15,200
sorts of explanations and particularly

1825
01:04:18,549 --> 01:04:16,400
people who

1826
01:04:20,230 --> 01:04:18,559
claim to be and i'm not denying you know

1827
01:04:21,990 --> 01:04:20,240
people have abilities to connect and

1828
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:22,000
you're saying the mediumship but then

1829
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:23,760
when they come in and all the pat

1830
01:04:26,470 --> 01:04:25,599
answers that you know i'm like you i'm

1831
01:04:28,710 --> 01:04:26,480
like

1832
01:04:31,589 --> 01:04:28,720
pause all that stuff

1833
01:04:33,829 --> 01:04:31,599
so dr shashan where

1834
01:04:35,829 --> 01:04:33,839
next where do you go next with this

1835
01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:35,839
important work

1836
01:04:40,630 --> 01:04:38,319
i'm putting together a historical

1837
01:04:42,069 --> 01:04:40,640
anthology of new death experiences which

1838
01:04:43,510 --> 01:04:42,079
is going to be

1839
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:43,520
just that like a lot of the accounts

1840
01:04:46,630 --> 01:04:45,839
that i talk about in my books

1841
01:04:48,789 --> 01:04:46,640
you know

1842
01:04:50,150 --> 01:04:48,799
just for reasons of space by necessity

1843
01:04:51,990 --> 01:04:50,160
i've had to give you know short

1844
01:04:54,230 --> 01:04:52,000
descriptions of them or

1845
01:04:56,870 --> 01:04:54,240
you know a little extract from them but

1846
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:56,880
i thought putting together a book of you

1847
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:58,799
know full verbatim accounts from across

1848
01:05:03,670 --> 01:05:01,520
time would be a fun thing to do

1849
01:05:06,069 --> 01:05:03,680
so that's that's a long project but it's

1850
01:05:09,190 --> 01:05:06,079
a it's kind of making a little progress

1851
01:05:09,990 --> 01:05:09,200
and then eventually i'm gonna do

1852
01:05:11,670 --> 01:05:10,000
uh

1853
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:11,680
one on um

1854
01:05:15,029 --> 01:05:12,880
kind of sighing because it's such a

1855
01:05:16,309 --> 01:05:15,039
daunting project but uh i've been

1856
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:16,319
thinking about it a long time but i

1857
01:05:19,510 --> 01:05:17,760
wanna do um

1858
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:19,520
near-death experiences and classical

1859
01:05:24,309 --> 01:05:22,720
antiquity and kind of looking um

1860
01:05:26,630 --> 01:05:24,319
at all the verbatim accounts that we

1861
01:05:28,950 --> 01:05:26,640
have from from greece and rome but also

1862
01:05:30,309 --> 01:05:28,960
at how they interact with

1863
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:30,319
the ritual

1864
01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:32,160
side of things so ancient mystery cults

1865
01:05:35,670 --> 01:05:33,520
for example

1866
01:05:38,950 --> 01:05:35,680
in mystery cults you know people would

1867
01:05:41,349 --> 01:05:38,960
enter into these cave-like temples and

1868
01:05:44,069 --> 01:05:41,359
i kind of see them as reenactments of

1869
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:44,079
ndes a kind of shamanic reenactment

1870
01:05:47,589 --> 01:05:46,319
so it'll be partly that and then also

1871
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:47,599
how

1872
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:50,400
ancient early christian ndes kind of fit

1873
01:05:55,109 --> 01:05:52,559
into that world as well

1874
01:05:57,270 --> 01:05:55,119
but that's that's a long way off so but

1875
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:57,280
i've also i don't know if you

1876
01:05:59,910 --> 01:05:58,799
know about this but i started a new

1877
01:06:02,309 --> 01:05:59,920
imprint

1878
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:02,319
of white crow books called after worlds

1879
01:06:05,750 --> 01:06:03,440
press

1880
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:05,760
and that's an exciting venture because i

1881
01:06:08,710 --> 01:06:07,920
get to pretty much publish

1882
01:06:10,870 --> 01:06:08,720
any

1883
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:10,880
books that i want in this area of

1884
01:06:14,549 --> 01:06:13,200
research so the first one is one i

1885
01:06:17,829 --> 01:06:14,559
mentioned at the beginning uh the

1886
01:06:20,549 --> 01:06:17,839
occupants one about native american ndes

1887
01:06:22,390 --> 01:06:20,559
and shamanism and afterlife beliefs the

1888
01:06:24,069 --> 01:06:22,400
second one is

1889
01:06:26,390 --> 01:06:24,079
by a german scholar you might have run

1890
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:26,400
across this book to die is gain

1891
01:06:30,230 --> 01:06:27,760
and it was a

1892
01:06:31,510 --> 01:06:30,240
came out the same year as moody's book

1893
01:06:33,750 --> 01:06:31,520
in this country but it was a couple

1894
01:06:36,470 --> 01:06:33,760
years before in germany

1895
01:06:38,390 --> 01:06:36,480
and it's basically he you know

1896
01:06:40,390 --> 01:06:38,400
independently discovered ndes at the

1897
01:06:42,710 --> 01:06:40,400
same time as moody and he has a totally

1898
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:42,720
different take on it he comes at it from

1899
01:06:47,829 --> 01:06:44,720
the perspective of

1900
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:47,839
spirituality and theology and philosophy

1901
01:06:51,910 --> 01:06:49,839
and kind of delving deeply into those

1902
01:06:54,309 --> 01:06:51,920
questions about you know what do these

1903
01:06:57,510 --> 01:06:54,319
beliefs mean for our life on earth and

1904
01:07:00,150 --> 01:06:57,520
what do they mean for the future and

1905
01:07:02,870 --> 01:07:00,160
you know the the intertwining of ndes

1906
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:02,880
with philosophy in the afterlife so

1907
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:05,039
so that's an exciting project and a

1908
01:07:09,910 --> 01:07:07,839
whole kind of different term i can take

1909
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:09,920
absolutely so we will look for that

1910
01:07:13,910 --> 01:07:12,160
through uh an imprint of white chrome

1911
01:07:15,829 --> 01:07:13,920
what is your imprint name going to be

1912
01:07:17,670 --> 01:07:15,839
it's called afterworld's press

1913
01:07:18,789 --> 01:07:17,680
afterwards

1914
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:18,799
great

1915
01:07:21,109 --> 01:07:20,000
well we'll definitely keep an eye out

1916
01:07:22,870 --> 01:07:21,119
for that

1917
01:07:24,710 --> 01:07:22,880
yeah it's been absolutely terrific

1918
01:07:27,109 --> 01:07:24,720
having you on i wish you the best of

1919
01:07:30,150 --> 01:07:27,119
luck with this latest book

1920
01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:30,160
and with of course just your research in

1921
01:07:33,670 --> 01:07:31,599
general it's terrific the name of the

1922
01:07:35,829 --> 01:07:33,680
book again is the next world

1923
01:07:37,109 --> 01:07:35,839
extraordinary experiences of the

1924
01:07:39,349 --> 01:07:37,119
afterlife

1925
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:39,359
and our guest has been dr gregory

1926
01:07:49,589 --> 01:07:40,559
shushan

1927
01:07:52,069 --> 01:07:49,599
joining me today on skeptico one

1928
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:52,079
question to tie up from this interview

1929
01:07:55,829 --> 01:07:53,839
what is the importance of the near-death

1930
01:07:59,270 --> 01:07:55,839
experience accounts across culture and

1931
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:59,280
history that shushan has documented how

1932
01:08:04,630 --> 01:08:01,200
do those fit into the larger and most

1933
01:08:07,750 --> 01:08:04,640
pressing scientific issues we face like

1934
01:08:10,230 --> 01:08:07,760
those featured by yuval harari who we

1935
01:08:11,750 --> 01:08:10,240
played the clip from at the beginning

1936
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:11,760
let me hear your thoughts love to hear

1937
01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:13,520
from you there's only really one place

1938
01:08:18,309 --> 01:08:15,359
to do it if you want to talk to me skip

1939
01:08:20,470 --> 01:08:18,319
to go for them i've tried kind of going

1940
01:08:22,709 --> 01:08:20,480
in other places but it it it kind of

1941
01:08:25,189 --> 01:08:22,719
never really works out so

1942
01:08:26,950 --> 01:08:25,199
not on facebook not on twitter not on

1943
01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:26,960
youtube really

1944
01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:29,520
but i am on skeptical forum if you ever

1945
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:30,960
want to chat

1946
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:33,359
so once again thanks for joining me glad

1947
01:08:39,090 --> 01:08:35,920
you're here until next time

1948
01:08:52,690 --> 01:08:39,100
take care and bye for now